some requests

Hello, everyone, I just wanted to make a request that you check your posts before you send them to the various groups so that each post is in fact germane to the issues of each group. Often I cannot see the relevance of a post to what is being discussed on the group Nonformal Adult Education, for example. 

Also, it would be helpful if the first time that you use an acronym you could write the actual name to which the acronym refers. It is a time-honored practice that most professionals use, and it would be very helpful to those of us not working in the formal sector of adult education. 

Thanks,

Paul

Comments

Concerning the message I sent about …posting messages: I just realized that I was reacting to people’s replies to a message that originally was appropriate for various groups, such as the Nonformal group, but naturally the replies themselves were not necessarily as appropriate.

I realize that this is a mechanical issue.

“Back in the day” posting was confined to each group and you actually had to copy and paste it to another group, and the protocol was to mention that it was a cross-post from such and such.

So…first, I apologize for jumping the gun. And second: is there a way to go back to the old system?

Paul

 I get a 12-hour digest and  ... scrolling through all the different groups and seeing the exact same message eight times means sometimes I completely miss other messages.   Guess it's a way to make sure participants are ones with lots of time or lots of tech tolerance... I'm not even sure how I figured out at one point to make sure my reply only went to math.   

Since the button to "log in" still takes you to a different page that informs you that you can't post (because you're not logged in), as opposed to a page to log in, and then when you find the place to really  log in you get taken to yet a different page,  and you still have to navigate to the message you clicked a link to get to (and since the link might have been to a completely unrelated group, you may not have noted what group it was in), I have my doubts about changes.   

 

The problem w/ the digest is that because one message or reply may get sent to many groups, the same message shows up many times. When this happens to five or six posts, I'm looking at 20 messages -- but most of them are repeats.   

I just do the best I can to skim quickly.   

It has not been my experience that site design issues get rectified.  This isn't the first (or second, or third, or fourth) time I've mentioned the absurd notion that a button that says "LOG IN"  should allow a person to .... wait for it ... no, really... LOG IN.  Nope.    

  the "same message to a lot of groups" issue adds to the problem  because if I make the mistake of quickly clicking through the three or four steps necessary to actually log in, and plopping onto the front page... oops, I don't remember which of the groups I was reading.   I have to go back to the original email and click on it and open an entire new window.   Yes, it's only one more step... after how many other "just one more step."  Then, let's say the thing was interesting enough to show my coworker when she comes in.  Okay, which of these five windows was it in?   If there were just  one or two little "gotta click through a few things" deals, no big deal, but it happens again and again and again and again and again and again and again.  i I have learned many of the site's nuances of navigating so yes, sometimes I will think "No! Don't click on the link in the email.   Go to Chrome and find your bookmark and go to the front page and log in."   **Then** go back to the email window and click on it.    However, since once I'm logged in, I can just click through, I often don't remember "oh, this is my first one."    

Maybe it's  a filtering process -- to keep people like me from posting too much.   So I"ll stop now :) 

I totally concur with your comments S Jones.  I have had the same frustrations.  I just don't have time for this bulky, unwieldy interface.  I am involved in many other online groups and we never have any of this,  SO please have someone address it or you will lose people who might be valuable to the group.  I participate much, much less than I would if it were easier to sift through duplicates, login, find my place, etc., etc. as in the above post.  Nuff said.   

Helaine Marshall , LIU Hudson​

 

 

Helaine, S. Jones, and groups members, right! If it is difficult for us, then it is more difficult or new people whom we may want to "recruit". As has been said a few times, other online groups do not have these problems. Perhaps the real question is - how are changes made here? I do not expect "democracy" but at least our legitimate concerns should be addressed

Paul

Paul and others, I completely agree about the unwieldiness being a barrier, even for the persistent veterans we have active here. When I first joined LINCS, I was quite vocal and managed to try to get input to the parties driving the bus. It was a bit of a disappointing ride. From what I could gather, there is no "one source" responsible for fixes. Although many of the interfaces we see all appear to be part of the same tool, there were in fact at least three different components each created by a different agency. When suggestions are made for a fix, there seems to be many fingers pointed around the different providers and there seems to be difficulty in determining who is responsible for fixes in any given part of the interfaces. Additionally, since the different elements were produced at different times, there are complications that one change in one part may create issues for others that based their work off of what existed at that time.

This form of development is of course very poor practice in design, but as we all know in the educational field, policy, funding formulas and procedures are rarely efficient machines. In essence, the system we have is what has been paid for and we can offer suggestions (and we are encouraged to continue doing so) but we may not see many of the fixes we might want. It could be possible that a new economic cycle comes along and allows an agency (one of those already involved or perhaps a new one) to take what exists here in terms of content, takes the feedback everyone has had, and creates a new system that could easily contain all the valuable conversations we have had. I am very hopeful that those in charge of the LINCS system seriously consider some plan for upgrading/replacing the clunky interfaces so that others in the field can more easily participate. The current set up really is a form of discrimination in which only the technologically persistent are able to participate. Let us hope that our continued feedback can help encourage either the creation of a new interface (keeping all our conversations and data) or some sort of overhaul of existing systems to address the many concerns we all have. There is a "Contact Us" link where you sign into LINCS. That may be a good place for everyone to visit. Perhaps if they receive enough feedback (with suggestions would be nice of course) they may have data enough to demonstrate the need for funding a fix or replacement. 

Unwieldy is an understatement! I've finally figured out that if I log in from a different browser tab, I can actually "read more," as I'm invited to do in my email digest, and even post comments. But what a pain! Never mind the "log in" button that says "submit request." I've only been paying attention lately because people are commenting on a course I wrote, and because I'm hoping to get a discussion about distance learning started in a couple of weeks. I dread the explanations and instructions I'll have to give to new users.

One improvement I do recall -- this new site started out requiring a 14-, maybe 16-character password complete with capital letters, symbols, numbers, and who knows what else. Thank goodness the Powers That Be lightened up on that, at least!

--Wendy Quinones

I really wish that I could recommend LINCs to more of my co-workers (and even volunteer tutors!) but I feel like I would need to start offering a course in "how to make LINCs work." As a result, I haven't really pushed the issue, even though I personally feel that practicing instructors should at least "lurk" on a regular basis. How hard can it be to get to the ease-of-use level of a standard-issue discussion board? (For example: http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums ) Note that in many cases you only need to create a membership to participate, not to read--but I bet that more people would participate if they could check out the site first before joining...

 

I work with a team of five staff developers, of which only two of us read LINCS posts with any regularity because of the difficulty of using the discussion forums and web site as a whole. I have tried to encourage other staff developers and teachers to participate, but obstacles to reading and posting are not worth the trouble at this point. I will try to encourage others again when and if some progress is made fixing the issues with the site.

Eric Appleton
CUNY Adult Literacy
New York City

Susan and all,  Recently the LINCS team worked on update to help curb some of the issues you have with the commenting from a digest message. (This also works if you get immediate notifications.) The new code fixes the login or register button on a LINCS discussion so it will let you login with your LINCS account information, and then redirects you back to the discussion you were trying to comment on or view. Please let us know if you continue to have issues, as usual, please use the Contact Us button at the top of the page. 

Best,
Jo

Hoorah! Now when I click on "read more" in the digest, I actually can do that! This is real progress.  However, when I wanted to reply (like this) and was redirected to the login page, after logging in I went not to the discussion I had been in, but an entirely different one in an ELL section. It took a couple of attempts, going back to the original digest, clicking again on "read more," to get to the correct discussion. Then it took some scrolling to find the comment I wanted to see again.  Still, this is better!

What a difference a day makes.  Today, clicking on "read more" took me to a page that had no apparent "log in" button.  I had to click on the menu bars ion the upper right corner, which took me to the log in page with that absurd "submit query" button.  THAT took me to my account page, not the discussion I wanted to follow.  Grrrrrr.

Hello Wendy, and others,

It would help those who are trying to solve LINCS user problems, if this happens again and if you can, to note in detail what you were expecting, and what happened at each step. Send this information to them by selecting "Help" from the blue menu at the top of the LINCS Community page, and then selecting "Contact Us", or just going directly to https://community.lincs.ed.gov/Contact. It might also help them if you can reference the page(s) in the steps you take, either by Web address, or by including screen captures (although I don't know if you can include screen captures in the LINCS Contact email.) This is not how any of us like to spend our time, but it is helpful to getting problems like these addressed. Recently I have seen some improvements, and I believe there is an interest in continuing to improve the interface. I am trying to report issues that I experience in this way and, when I do, I have been seeing progress in addressing them.

David J. Rosen

djrosen123@gmail.com

 

Thank you for all your feedback. As you know, LINCS has many different components, with different contractors and grantees. The LINCS Community was launched in September 2012 and we continue to grow and make improvements. We realize that the system can be improved. Please bear with us as we coordinate the federal e-gov and security regulations, as well as contracting requirements and budget limitations. We will certainly use these comments to inform future work regarding LINCS, and more specifically the LINCS Community. Once decisions have been made for any changes to the site, we will let you know, so that you can provide feedback or help us test any changes, new features, or enhancements.

Please continue to share your thoughts and ideas. Last month, the moderators posted up questions in each of the groups asking how you use LINCS and what if anything you find valuable in LINCS. We encourage you to share your thoughts on those questions, as they will be gathered for a report to help inform future decisions. You can find the posts (they are in the blue "sticky" section) in the discussion tab for each group. 

Looking forward to continued discussions with you.

Best,
Jo

When I think of the good stuff that happens here that doesn't spread... I don't wonder why.   I know the unwieldy interface is a huge part of it.   

I wish there were some way to change the infrastructure so that making a good interface was, actually, feasible.

Maybe there's another forum we could cross-pollinate with... 

For years I have been combing the LINCS postings to find nuggets of information (and there are many) to share with state colleagues because most of them do not have time to delve into LINCS  With the many changes that are occurring, time is even more crucial.  Sometimes regrouping and prioritizing is necessary, and out of that, less certainly does become more.

Hi Norene, and others,

Information sharing, of course, is an important LINCS service. How do you share information you learn about from LINCS with your colleagues or students? Do you have a private email list you post to, just email to colleagues when you learn something that may be specifically useful to them, post to a statewide e-discussion list, tweet the information or send it to a Facebook or other social media site, or something else?

I would also be very interested to hear from others who share LINCS information with colleagues or students? How, and how often (e.g. once in a while, at least once a month, at least once a week, or daily) do you do that?

David J. Rosen

Moderator, Technology and Learning and Program Management CoPs

djrosen123@gmail.com

Colleagues,

Liz Harling, who has trouble logging into LINCS, agreed that I could pass on her comment here:

On Apr 27, 2016, at 4:02 PM, Liz Harling <lharling@VMLC.org> wrote:
 
I share with my staff irregularly, by email – just when something will be of interest to them or telling them that they should post a link in our blog that our volunteer teachers can view.  Its usually a link to a new resource of some kind.  Sometimes I will also share information from LINCS with teachers at a roundtable discussion that we have periodically.

David J. Rosen

djrosen123@gmail.com

 

David, for several years I have shared LINCS information with Montana colleagues via MTLINCS weekly emails .  With the advent of WIOA, at the moment  we are regrouping and will decide what the format will be in the near future.  Of course, this does not mean that I still do not comb LINCS for those nuggets and send them to folks who need the information. We Montana folks love to ride the trails as we look for "gold in them thar hills".  After all, we are the Treasure State, and sometimes we find that treasure in LINCS - even if it requires digging, digging, and more digging. 

 

I Just HAVE to add here that I am happy to learn I was not alone in the issues I have had with the LINCS interface in this new format.   (New compared to the old listserv).  I agree with ALL the comments posted ---my biggest complaint was the one about trying to reply, getting to a page saying you not AUTHORIZED to reply, then logging in and having to figure out where the heck the discussion went you were trying to reply to....... it appears to be fixed-- though I just got directed to a discussion I had not seen.  

Thank you for trying to make it a LITTLE easier-- though I still agree with the comment that it is too hard to direct others to something on the site without having to decide if I am going to offer an "Intro to LINCS" session first.....Robin   

 

 

This may seem like a trivial thing - but it annoys me every time I log on - why do I have to sign on every time?  On almost every other site I can save my password and it logs me in when I access the page.  Could Lincs be set up like that?  

If your browser is configured to use cookies to persist sessions, and if you are re-visiting the site within 24 hours, the LINCS login will persist up to a week without you having to re-login.  Other sites may allow you to have sessions persist longer than a week, or they may allow your session to last longer than a week.  Are those other sites .gov web sites?

Lincs appears to have been developed using the Drupal 7 CMS. A quick check showed that Drupal has a history of problems with persistent logins. I let the browser (Chrome) remember my login info and have had no problems. That might be a frustration-free alternative. I use Firefox occasionally, so I can't say how well it remembers logins, but I suspect it's comparable to Chrome. Opera is good, too. Edge forgets, but it's new and is still in the user-debugging stage.

Hi Bob,

Letting my Firefox and Safari.browsers remember my LINCS log-in information has been a good solution for me, too.  Once set this way it's good for many months, until I have to create a new LINCS password. No more log-in frustration!

If anyone else has tested automating a LINCS log-in with different browsers, let us know how that works for you.

David J. Rosen

djrosen123@gmail.com

Hi Wendy,

See the One more thing part of this post below. That may make logging in to LINCS much easier for you.

The LINCS Quotient Team has been working on improving the interface to enable easier responding to LINCS Community posts and comments. For those who choose to receive them in emailed digests you should now be able, from your digest, to select a post or comment, choose "read more", and it should take you to the LINCS page where you should see the particular post or comment. If you are already logged in to LINCS, you can reply immediately. If not, you should see a log-in opportunity. Once logged in, you should be taken directly to the post or comment you want to reply to.

You should also see some, but not identical, improvements if you get each post or comment emailed to you immediately, but not in digest form.

If you are still experiencing difficulty, if you can, please report the problem by selecting  "Help" from the blue menu bar at the top of the LINCS Community page, then selecting the "Contact Us" link. The more detail you can provide about what you expected to happen and what did happen the better, including screen shots of the pages.

I know that reporting technical problems isn't fun or easy for most of us, and you may not wish to do that, but if you do perhaps the particular problem(s) you experience may be more easily fixed.

One more thing, your web browser (for example Firefox or Safari) may allow you to automate a frequent log-in. If you have automated your LINCS log-in, when you need to log in, and start typing your ID, it will recognize your ID for you after one or two letters, and if you select the ID, it will type in your password for you. Obviously, for your security, you only want to do this on computer that you have already password protected. I have found that automating logging in makes it much easier.

David J. Rosen

djrosen123@gmail.com

I have Chrome set up to remember it -- but I had to figure out to wave my little mouse over it (and... not remembering now 'cause it's a motor memory... maybe start typing the first letter)  and then my username shows up and when I click to confirm that, the password shows up.   It saves a little time but of course the other really lousy design "features" are still enough to keep many people from participating. 

Hi all,

I encourage anyone still having trouble with the LINCS interface to get in touch with tech support.  I had a long session with Milad from the Quotient team (don't remember if it was GoToMeeting or AdobeConnect) in which it became evident that there was some issue between the LINCS interface and Firefox. A couple of days later Milad emailed to say he thought the issue was resolved, and since then everything is working as it should. Cheers to Milad and Quotient!

 

Wendy Quinones