TABE 11-12, Have you started? Impressions and Suggestion?

SC has delayed starting TABE 11-12 until January 2019.

 

Has your program started?

Paper-Based or Computer-Based?

Impressions?

Suggestions?

 

Brett

brettstaylor@gmail.com

Comments

Are any of you using the Level L test?

We have students who tested at this level in TABE 9/10 who we expect will need level L for 11/12.

Upon reviewing the Level L in TABE 11/12, it appears--based on Page 7 of the Scoring Guide--that a student can get a Raw Score (NC) of 0 and be given a Scale Score of 300!?  Confused--Based on the NRS table, 300 appears to be a valid score? Is that true?  I do not see an out of range chart anywhere. Can someone really get 0 questions correct on Level L and be given a valid score? I feel I must be missing something.

Nicole

Hi Nicole,

I just got the Scoring Guide for the 11/12, and it looks like the scores are on a 300-800 scale, so 300 is basically the same as 0. Since the L is the lowest level test, there would be no point in having an out of range score, since there is no lower test that could be administered to a student.

If you have a student who really got 0 on the L, have you done any informal assessment to determine whether that seems accurate to you? (Ex: word list, writing sample, etc.) Is this a native English speaker? Did the student understand how the test works? We haven't tested anyone yet, and I'm curious how common a score of 300 might be...

I'm curious to hear your observations.

Rachel

Despite the many issues associated with administration and specific results reporting, how have the post-test results been, a lot of GAINS??

Any thoughts/observations on HSE test performance in relation to TABE levels?

Brett

PS- I was laid off as SC Adult Ed Training Specialist at the end of 2018...so, just in case...seeking a new position.

We are showing gains. Not like we were before! However with the lack of materials available, I am impressed at how many gains we are making!

I find TABE is also more reliable when it comes down to predicting success on the HiSET test. 

We've been using TABE 11/12 since May 1, 2018 for those who had already shown a gain in FY18 using the 9/10 and for new enrollees.  As of 1/1/19, it is the only test allowed under any circumstance.  We saw a drop in NRS level almost completely across the board for all.  With progress testing we're really struggling to get gains.  One thing we're noticing is that when the locator and test put someone at the top of the test level such as at a NRS 3 and that test only goes that far, the progress test, which has to be same the test level, won't allow a gain!  They simply give us the highest scale score for the level and the + sign, but retesting at a higher level isn't considered the right action for a progress test.  (Are we alone in seeing and thinking this?)

We've also seen things like students who score 37 out of 47 points and get scale score 533 and then on the retest they get 41 out of 47 points and yet a scale score of 529... yes lower.  (I'm not looking at the exact report but giving sample figures that demonstrate the concept.)  How is this real?  How is this fair to the student?

Frustration is our major emotion lately.  We do not believe in buying materials geared directly to the TABE.  We teach holistically for real life improvements and to achieve on the GED(R) test.  Anyone seeing what we are?

Thanks!

"One thing we're noticing is that when the locator and test put someone at the top of the test level such as at a NRS 3 and that test only goes that far, the progress test, which has to be same the test level, won't allow a gain!  They simply give us the highest scale score for the level and the + sign, but retesting at a higher level isn't considered the right action for a progress test."

Am I right in understanding that if the pretest is an E Level and an NRS of 3, you are NOT testing M Level? It is impossible to get a 4 on an E level. You HAVE to test an M. Which means you have to teach the M level standards. This holds true for each level. The purpose is to show they are progressing through the levels, why wouldn't it be ok to post test them on the next level?

I understand not "teaching the TABE" however, the TABE test (from what I understand, we do HiSET) is more closely geared towards HSE. We find a way to hit on common standards on the TABE and HiSET.

Here are the exact words from the assessment policy:

Progress tests must be administered in the same content areas as the initial assessments. A progress test must be given in the alternate test form but same test level as the initial assessment. For instance, if the initial assessment was TABE 11, Level M, the progress test must be TABE 12, Level M. Measurable Skill Gain by pre-/post-assessment is determined by comparing the learner’s initial assessment with a valid post assessment.

 

We don't recall hitting the same problem with 9/10 as much.  Not sure why and my assessment coordinator is gone to a conference this week, so I can't double check with him.

With the 9/10 a student could always show a gain provided the pre-test they took was "in range".  If they maxed out on the subsequent post test the system would produce an NRS level above what the student was at on the pre-test.  However, the spread on the 11/12 can set up a situation where it is possible for a student to get a better score that is in range without the possibility of an NRS gain.

The Math M scoring guide is sitting in front of me so that is what I will use.  This test covers an NRS spread of level 2 through 4.  If a student gets a raw score of 27 through 33 (scale score of 541 through 588) they will be scored at NRS level 4.  This point spread is all within what is considered in range.  Scores from 34 to 39 (scale score 595) should trigger the + indicating the student should take the next level up yet still produces an NRS level 4.  This sets up a situation where the student is showing growth yet the program can not show it until the next progress test if they assign the next level, in this case a D.  

For example:  JimBob McFreeny comes in and takes his pretest.  On the Math section the locator places him in the M level and he takes that test.  JimBob has some math skills and scores a 542 scale score and gets an NRS level 4.  This score is in range and therefore must be used.  40 hours later JimBob takes his progress test, that must be at the same level according to state rules, and scores a 595+.  Even though he has not only improved his score, but maxed out the M level math test, JimBob does not get a gain until I can give him the D test on his second progress test in another 40 hours.

This is true across all subjects and levels of the TABE 11/12

What would you do if they scored a 9.0 on the M level TABE 9/10?

 

Right! We give JimBob the D level test for his progress test. 

Is the mandate about the level of the progress test a state or NRS requirement? We have been specifically told that we can NOT test on a lower level but we can test a higher level.

What would you do if they scored a 9.0 on the M level TABE 9/10?

This question does not relate well to the conversation on 11/12 as grade equivalency is not included in the reports.  Having said that, if while taking a progress test a student maxed out a level on the 9/10 it would always produce a gain on the NRS level from the pre-test.  In other words, it was always possible to get an NRS gain.

 

Right! We give JimBob the D level test for his progress test. 

Is the mandate about the level of the progress test a state or NRS requirement? We have been specifically told that we can NOT test on a lower level but we can test a higher level.

​Unfortunately, due to state rules, we can not change the test level on the first progress test.  Because JimBob's pre-test was in range on the M he must take the M on his first progress test.  In the scenario I presented, (which has happened a few times already) it is impossible for JimBob to earn an NRS/EFL gain on his first progress test.  This raises a problem from a program standpoint because other than passing all GED tests, NRS/EFL gains is the only metric that Arizona uses when evaluating a program.

Yes, I can give JimBob a D level test on his second progress test, however this means another 40 hours of seat time (now 80 hours from the pre-test) before he has an opportunity to earn a gain.

That is horrific! It sounds as if y'all need someone in high places that understands the ground work. I'm sorry for the 3rd degree, I am relatively new and trying to figure out what is state vs. federal mandates!

Now that we are aware of these "Black Holes" where a student's initial test places him/her in an NRS level where the he/she cannot make a gain, we are retesting at initial testing time. Moving them up then to the higher TABE level to allow for the student to be able to make the gain. DRC just sent out their Scoring Best Practices this week which suggests allowing for a progress test to be in the next level up from the initial. Until the State Assessment policy is revised to state this, I am retesting during initial placement testing. It is pretty awful and we were led to believe that there would be fewer retests due to the longer Locator. But no one told us about the black holes. It wasn't until we say a student on her second progress test still scoring 595+ that I started researching what was going on. Illinois and Florida seem to be ahead of this curve. I recommend you look at page 10 in this presentation. It has the scale scores and NRS levels clearly marked. https://www.floridaipdae.org/dfiles/resources/webinars/013019/Webinar_Presentation_013019.pdf

 

Thanks for the info, I missed the notice from DRC on the best practices.

It is pretty awful and we were led to believe that there would be fewer retests due to the longer Locator. 

On the longer locator test: I recently attended a DRC session where they stated one thing that they think is throwing off the locator is that students are taking too long and they are looking at shortening the time available.  He also recommended telling students to skip problems they don't know on the locator rather than attempt them.

 

But no one told us about the black holes. It wasn't until we say a student on her second progress test still scoring 595+ that I started researching what was going on. Illinois and Florida seem to be ahead of this curve.

 

Glad to hear others are having the same issues as we did in MD. We noticed these "black holes" last May when we were setting up our certificate levels, to coincide with NRS levels, prior to test implementation on July 1, 2018. It was pretty crazy the first few months. We decided that if the student received a negative scale score on the initial placement test, we would immediately retest them at the next lowest level (Ex. if student receives a negative or O/R on the D test, we gave them the M). If they score in the positive range, we immediately tested them on the next level up (Ex. if they score positive on the M test, give them the D). We then used the score on the second test for class placement. This gave the student an opportunity to make a gain on their post (or progress) test. We made this policy, in addition to many other procedures related to TABE 11/12, and trained all teachers. 

We are just starting to complete post-testing on TABE 11/12 for the first time. The first student to post test was Located into Level M originally. The student scored O/R on the post test in Level M, so had to be re-tested in Level E. We suspected other students who tested in the low range on Level M could also potentially score O/R on a post test. It's a small sample size so far, but that's what has happened. 

We have more of an issue of people in the pre-test process testing O/R on the low end, not the high end. For someone who tested in the + range, we would expect to choose the next higher level on a post-test. That's what we did with 9/10 as well (though, it was also a small portion of our post-testers). 

We did see NRS drops with students between 9/10 and 11/12 (the majority one level drop, i.e. NRS 4 to NRS 3), like we thought might happen because of increased rigor in the levels themselves. A Level M book on 11/12 is more difficult than a Level M 9/10. I'm curious to see what gains are like on 11/12 post tests. 

I don't know whether it's a better predictor of HSE readiness yet. I have students who dropped in NRS on the 11/12, but have been successfully passing HSE tests with high scores. Could this be attributed to students not taking the TABE 11/12 seriously? Possibly. I don't know if this is a problem in other programs or not, but there are definitely students who do not try their hardest and so when they get into a classroom, it's often evident that the TABE was not an accurate assessment of their skills. Students who experienced the change over from 9/10 to the 11/12 (so not students who started the program on 11/12) could have just thought it wasn't a big deal and didn't try as hard as they could have. Or, it could be that 11/12 is more difficult, so it is a truer measurement of skills at a specific level. 

I'm excited for the increased rigor of TABE 11/12, but I'm also anxious to see if students will actually show gains in the post-test. 

Stephanie

 

I just completed the first part of the Pennsylvania TABE 11/12 training (haven't done the observation part yet), and we are instructed that if a student gets a + score on the pretest, they should be posttested on the next level test. So, there's no need to retest immediately; we can still wait until the student has the required hours of instruction.

If someone gets an O/R score, we have to retest immediately on a lower level test. If they get a - score, then we're advised to pay special attention to teaching the student the material needed at that level. I know that timing tests can be tricky enough as it is, but I'm thinking that folks with - scores might do better if they get more hours of instruction before retesting, so if I'm on the fence about whether to test a student and I see that they have a - score, I might decide to wait. I'm curious to hear if you are seeing these students move up into the regular score range on the same test, or if you're retesting them...

It's interesting to hear that they're considering shortening the locator--If it means more accurate test placement and shorter initial testing times, I'm in favor! It's a pain  to retest students on the 9/10. I can only imagine that it would be worse with the 11/12, since it's so much longer. Given the way retesting works in PA, it seems like it would be preferable to have students in a slightly easier test rather than a harder one. They can always move up next time.

It's always interesting to me to hear how different states write their policies. I feel bad for those of you who have to retest both + and - scores... and I especially feel bad for your students! I hope that your states decide to follow DRC's advice in this matter. Things are crazy enough as it is without adding more hoops to jump through.

A couple of questions. I understand if they pretest in level D, they should post test in level D. And yes, I agree if they were the highest score in D on the pretest, it will be difficult to make a gain. When the TABE itself was less time consuming, you could re pretest students s the next level. However, the new TABE is way too long.

 

My question is...the student pretests . at D4. They attend classes for 6 months or more with great success. They complete GED READY with better than average scores and complete their GED in month #7. Their attendance is spotty, so as the instructor, I take what I can get and in 6 months they have only accrued maybe 90-100 hours, so a post test is needed. However, since they earned their high school diploma, they do not return.

 

Now, I have been told that will not count as a gain! This really racks my brain! I have been told they must be level 5 or 6 for the GED to count as a gain@&#$÷!

 

THOUGHTS?

Laura,

Can you post-test at 50 hours? We are allowed to in our state, and we almost always do. If we waited until 90-100 hours, many of our students would already be done with their HSEC, too.

Yes, I certainly could test in less hours but I forget. I am all by myself and I enter the classroom and start my "act". Therehvae beenmultiple time that I have set up the TABE booklet and answer sheet up and have neglected to give it to the student, or they are absent and then I really forget.THE administration is in another location and I do get emails and info from them, reminding me.

 

There is also the rare instance where a student has spotty attendance but manage to earn their GED in less than 50 hours.

 

I still am frustrated that earning your high school diploma is not a gain.